Question to Consider

>> Sunday, June 20, 2010

  • Were Obama to stage another Oval Office address to the American people during which he made a point of establishing once and for all that his faith is indeed Islam, would he, as a result, lose faith with, and support from the bulk of his supporters?

In comments elsewhere it is suggested that we do not understand Islam; at least not as a number of anecdotal missionaries in Morocco do. Across the media spectrum talking heads have led us to believe that Islam is a religion of peace; that it is radical Islam that has departed from the faith. But consider the source. We accept the 'truth' of Islam's suborning from people who know as little-- or less --about Islam than do we reading this post. The bulk of Americans naively accept whatever these talking heads tell them. Why? Because they accept these people as learned and educated on just about EVERY topic imaginable. They are professionals; they have researchers and legal teams verifying every word scripted and scrolled through the teleprompter.

Why do we believe this? Because they tell us things we don't know? Folk in south Alabama wouldn't know of a foiled terrorist plot in New York unless media told them. And even at that, the media merely relays information from other sources in law enforcement, and then analyze said information with the help of 'experts' and 'contributors', whose impartiality cannot be verified. We are told they are experts, or impartial, but Americans are too trusting. We believe what we are told. And media uses our naivete against us.

What religion claiming to be of peace, has its foundation in hatred, intolerance, murder, and war? Can any religion be considered holy with such a beginning? Perhaps the most dangerous people in this debate are not the Muslims themselves, but the 'Christians' who, out of a misguided and misinformed attempt to emulate the so-called 'tolerance' of Christ-- a tolerance expected of us as His followers. But what tolerance did Christ display toward unbelievers beside the iron-fisted tolerance of the Gospel; 'believe on me or die in your sins'? Was Jesus tolerant when he said repeatedly to the scribes and pharisees that they would die in the sins if they did not believe He was the one? Was He tolerant when He overturned the moneychanger's tables? Was he tolerant in His parables? Was He tolerant of the rich man who scorned Lazarus, to his own detriment? Was Jesus tolerant when He said, 'depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you'? Was He tolerant of the rich young ruler who went away sorrowful? Was Jesus tolerant of anyone or anything which was not in strict compliance with God's holy law? Please don't make the mistake of confusing forgiveness with tolerance. They are two wholly different animals.

Jesus said, 'Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.' This is not the picture of tolerance. And who says the Christian faith is a tolerant one? Sadly, far too many professing Christians do just that.

If Christianity therefore isn't a tolerant faith, why then do so many professing Christians insist Islam is? For a faith that declares lying to be an acceptable practice in the propagation of the faith; that declares Jews and Christians to be enemies should they not be willing to bend the knee to Allah; should be killed if opportunity presents itself... how can it then be said that strict adherents of Islam are in the extreme? That they are extremists? We do not call Catholics who spend every day in confession and prayer, extremists. We call them devout. So too are Muslims who accept the very Islamic tenets of killing, lying, subjugation, and demeaning of women. They are devout... not radical at all. We in the West have naively accepted the premise that no one who believes such things could ever be part of a mainstream, noble religion. Therefore, the 'peaceful' Muslims must be 'moderate' in their beliefs. And it's the extremists who take Islam's holy book out of context. But in truth, it the West that has taken the Quran out of context.

It's not 'radical' Islam. It is simply, ISLAM. And though Islam is very much an 'intolerant' religion, so too is Christianity-- just not to the extremes devout adherents of Islam exercise theirs.

  • Devout Christianity does not advocate deception if it advances the cause of Christianity.
  • Christianity doe not incite murder or genocide.
  • Christianity does not propagate a belief in war for the purpose of subjugation.
  • Nor does Christianity seek to demean and brutalize women.

It doesn't matter therefore whether Barack Obama is a Muslim. Whether he is or isn't misses the point that he does not know God, let alone Christ Jesus.

Reiterating: Jesus said, 'Whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.' But how, you ask, has Barack Obama denied Christ before men?

Obama believes there are many paths to heaven. In a 2004 interview with Cathleen Falsani, Obama said, "I believe that there are many paths to the same place... All people of faith-— Christians, Jews, Muslims, animists, everyone knows the same God."

By this statement alone Obama denies Christ. He is saying, in effect, that the blood of Christ is worthless because, apparently, Christ died for nothing if an Animist or Taoist-- who by such faith rejects the sacrifice of Christ --is getting into heaven without having to resort to His blood.

Obama Denies the Authority of the Bible. In the sermon on the mount, Jesus affirmed that every "jot and tittle' of the Law is true, including the parts that condemn homosexuality.

In an interview with the homosexual publication, The Advocate, Obama attacked faithful black pastors who faithfully proclaim what the Bible says about homosexuality, declaring, "...most African-American churches are still fairly traditional in the interpretations of Scripture. And so from the pulpit or in sermons you still hear homophobic attitudes expressed."

However, Obama lavished praise on his controversial former pastor and mentor, Jeremiah Wright, for being "very good on gay and lesbian issues." Obama’s former church, Trinity United Church of Christ voted recently to approve of homosexual marriage. And our president dismisses as "obscure," the clear and definitive teaching of the Apostle Paul in Romans 1 that calls homosexual acts both "indecent" and "perverse."

Obama Supports Abortion. Appearing before a 2008 meeting of Planned Parenthood, the largest abortion provider in America, Obama proudly said, "I have consistently had a 100% pro-choice rating with Planned Parenthood and NARAL Pro-Choice America." He said, "The first thing I'd do as president is sign the Freedom of Choice Act." And at the infamous forum hosted by Pastor Rick Warren said that to know when a baby ought to have human rights is "above his pay grade," but he is very clear that a baby can be killed anytime, even after it is born. On four separate occasions Obama has voted against bills that prevented the killing of infants that are born alive, having survived an attempted abortion.

Obama Affirmed Muslim Prayer. In a New York Times interview in 2007, entitled Obama, A man of the World, Obama fondly recalled the Islamic evening call to prayer as "one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset."

According to the article, "Obama went on to recite its opening lines with a perfect Arabic accent: "Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme! I witness that there is no god but Allah! I witness that there is no god but Allah! I witness that Muhammad is his prophet!" The article said this would "give any one living in Alabama a heart attack."

Christians believe that Jesus Christ is God’s True Prophet, the full and final revelation of God. No true Christian can say the Muslim call to prayer is a "pretty sound" because it is a direct challenge to the truthfulness of Jesus Christ as the Word of God made flesh.

Obama is Associated with Black Liberation Theology through his long association with his former pastor Jeremiah Wright.

According to Black Liberation Theologian, James Cone, racial identity trumps the fact that he is a Christian. "The fact that I am Black is my ultimate reality... it is impossible for me to surrender this basic reality for a 'higher, more universal' reality... Black theology knows no authority more binding than the experience of oppression itself. This alone must be the ultimate authority in religious matters."

Black liberation theology declares that whites are essentially evil and are to be viewed as the enemy. "Whiteness as revealed in the history of America, is the expression of what is wrong with man. It is a symbol of man's depravity... the coming of Christ means... destroying the white devil in us... in white racist society, Christian obedience can only mean being obedient to blackness, it's glorification and exaltation... all white churches (are) anti-Christian in their essence."

By Obama's own account of his essential elements of true biblical conversion are lacking, namely, conviction of sin, repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of the world. When asked if he believed in sin, Obama said "Yes." But when asked to define it, Obama said sin is, "Being out of alignment with my values."

Obama said he feels most aligned spiritually "when I’m being true to myself."

According to the Bible, when man sins, he sins against a Holy God in the violation of God’s holy law. Sin is not based on any man's standards. Righteousness is obedience to God and his word.

Obama is offended by the notion that all people need Christ in order to be saved.

"The difficult thing about... Christianity, is that at some level there is a call to evangelize... There’s the belief, certainly in some quarters, that people haven’t embraced Jesus Christ as their personal savior that they're going to hell." So, if Jesus is not a Savior who rescues from hell, then who is Jesus to Obama?

"Jesus is an historical figure for me, and he's also a bridge between God and man, in the Christian faith, and one that I think is powerful precisely because he serves as that means of us reaching something higher." This is not the testimony of a true Christian.

For Obama, Jesus is merely a historical figure not the risen and living Lord. For Obama, Jesus is merely "a" bridge in the "Christian faith," not the only bridge for all mankind. For Obama, Jesus is a means to some vague "higher" thing. To the Christian, knowing and experiencing Christ is the highest attainment of the Christian life.

Obama venerates doubt, which is contrary to the assurance of eternal salvation and truth which Christ gives his people. Asked if he was "born again," Obama answered, "Yeah... [but] I retain... a suspicion of dogma... I think that religion at it's best comes with a big dose of doubt... I don't presume to have knowledge of what happens after I die."

Asked to describe the day he was converted Obama denies that there was any kind of supernatural enlightenment or an epiphany or a specific moment when he finally "got it... I think it was just a moment to certify or publicly affirm a growing faith in me."

Obama's testimony does not have the marks of a bona fide biblical conversion.

Jesus gives his assurance that "He who believes on me has everlasting life," and "I go to prepare a place for you!"

When asked where he finds inspiration, Obama does not mention a relationship with Christ. He does mentions a lot of things church, but not Jesus.

When asked who was his role model he mentions Gandi. "Gandhi is a great example of a profoundly spiritual man who acted and risked everything on behalf of those values but never slipped into intolerance or dogma. He seemed to always maintain an air of doubt about him." No mention of Christ.

Without the public admission that you are lost in sin and that you have turned from your sin and put your faith in Christ and his shed blood as the only remedy for sin, you are not truly converted.

The tenets of Christianity are every bit as strict as Islam, but only one faith can be true, and that faith is Christianity. Because only Christianity offers a solution to the problem of sin.

But it has been demonstrated over and over again, that Barack Obama is not a Christian. He...

  • believes there are many paths to heaven
  • denies the authority of the Bible
  • supports abortion
  • affirms Muslim prayer
  • is associated with Black Liberation Theology
  • has no bona fide Christian testimony

It doesn't matter whether Obama is a Muslim or not. The deeper issue here is the fact that he is not Christian. Yes, I'm concerned for this country, and Obama's coziness with Islam and demeanor toward and rejection of Israel is deeply troubling. But in light of eternity, Obama will burn like every other sinner not covered by the blood of Christ Jesus.

And THAT is the intolerance of Christianity. Not that Christianity excludes people from heaven. But that Christianity excludes everyone unwilling to accept the free gift of HIS grace, and HIS righteousness [and not trying to 'get there' on our own merit]. God is intolerant of sin. And unless the sinner accepts that good and perfect gift, he is doomed, for, as Peter put it...

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. --Acts 4:12

I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst... All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. --John 6:35, 37-40

I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. --John 8:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. --John 10:7-10

I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep... I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. --John 10:11, 15-18

I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? --John 11:25-26

He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. --John 12:44-48

I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. John 14:6

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
--John 3:18

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. --John 1:12-13

The intolerant faith of Christianity. There is no other way. Whatever Obama believes, whatever the talking heads tell you. Islam is not a peaceful religion. Nor is it radical. It merely is. If it seems radical at times that it is simply because the true face of Islam has emerged, from the hands of its more devout practitioners. And that we judge 'radical' by the standard of our own faith.

It doesn't matter if Obama is a closet Muslim. What matters is that he is NOT a Christian, and doesn't have the truth. If he had the truth he might have still failed his faith, his God, and this nation. No one is perfect. But Obama is NOT Christian. And that puts his very soul at risk.

And yes, his soul is worth more than the combined wealth of the universe itself. YOUR soul as well.

And so... I've considered this question as much as I have time for.


Mark June 20, 2010 at 5:59 PM  

Wow! I thought my posts were lengthy! Later when I have more time, I'll come back and read it all. Good job (so far), Eric!

Marshall Art June 20, 2010 at 11:23 PM  

Wow, indeed! I'm not sure what to say in response. I certainly concur with the overriding message, though it seems two-fold.

1-Islam isn't a religion of peace.
2-Obama isn't a Christian.

I've no problem with either of these two points. In fact I think they're quite accurate.

As to Christianity, another word that works for me is "exclusive". It is a very exclusive religion as only those who believe on Jesus will be saved, and I think it's pretty clear, that one must believe on His terms to the best of one's ability. It is only inclusive insofar as one decides to do things God's way.

I think it's notable that the major difference between a devout Christian and a devout Muslim is that no one need ever fear a devout Christian. Not true a devout Muslim.

One more point about Obama and his "faith". It was one important piece of advice of our founders that we elect only a truly Christian man. That's a tough gig even if everyone agreed and believed in the importance of the task. I'm quite certain it's more important today than ever before, so as best we can we must strive to do so.

Dan Trabue June 21, 2010 at 8:08 AM  

Too long. Too uninformed.

Sorry, Eric. You lost me way back about the 15th paragraph...

ELAshley June 21, 2010 at 8:34 AM  

Uninformed? You're not qualified to say that, Dan. I'll take evidence I've read for myself over anything anecdotal you have to offer.

And it's not too long. It's the length it's supposed to be.

Dan Trabue June 21, 2010 at 9:28 AM  

Eric, you started losing me right here, in your second paragraph...

In comments elsewhere it is suggested that we do not understand Islam; at least not as a number of anecdotal missionaries in Morocco do.

Tell me: Upon what set of data and information do you base your opinion of Islam? Because it SOUNDS like you're saying, "Forget what informed people who actually know about Islam are saying, or what Muslims themselves are saying, I have a better opinion based on, well, not much but my opinion..."

Maybe you're not saying that, but it sounds like it to me. So, that was my first question right off the bat - where are you getting your information about Islam?

As to your starting question, it was an easy answer: No, it would not matter to me if he "came out" as a Muslim. I'd rather have a Christian-acting Muslim in charge (or, if you prefer, a decent-acting Muslim in charge...) than someone who CLAIMS to be a Christian but acts like hell. Don't tell me what you are. Show me.

Dan Trabue June 21, 2010 at 10:16 AM  

To answer this question for me, my sources for info on Islam comes from, as noted, my Christian missionary friends living in Morocco who are extremely reliable source of truth and information. Also, Reza Aslan is a writer who speaks much wisdom, from what I've seen. This is what's written about one of his books...

Contrary to popular perception, Islam is a religion firmly rooted in the prophetic traditions of the Jewish and Christian scriptures. Aslan begins with a vivid account of the social and religious milieu from which the Prophet Muhammad arose. The revelations that Muhammad received in Mecca and Medina, and which were recorded in the Quran, became the foundation of a radically egalitarian community, the likes of which had never been seen before...

Finally, "No god but God" examines how, in the shadow of European colonialism, Muslims developed conflicting strategies to reconcile traditional Islamic values with the social and political realities of the modern world. With the emergence of the Islamic State in the 20th century, this contest over the future of Islam has become a passionate, sometimes violent battle between those who seek to enforce a rigid and archaic legal code on society and those who struggle to harmonize the teachings of the Prophet with contemporary ideals of democracy and human rights.

Also, I've read about Shirin Ebadi, Nobel Peace Prize winner.

She says...

"In the last 23 years, from the day I was stripped of my judgeship to the years of doing battle in the revolutionary courts of Tehran, I had repeated one refrain: an interpretation of Islam that is in harmony with equality and democracy is an authentic expression of faith. It is not religion that binds women, but the selective dictates of those who wish them cloistered. That belief, along with the conviction that change in Iran must come peacefully and from within, has underpinned my work."

Are there within Islam those who are oppressive and who believe in violence as solution? Yes, absolutely. Just as there are those within Christianity who do the same.

In fact, on some of the pages of your own comrades here, Eric, I've read how God DID in fact command Israel to kill men, women and children of their enemies. That God commanded Israel to kill the parents and boy children of their enemies, but to take home the virgin girls and make them their wives.

Sounds like a fairly spectacularly violent and oppressive form of Christianity, there. Shall we identify ALL Christians as believing in that sort of violence? No, of course not.

Same for Muslims, seems to me.

ELAshley June 21, 2010 at 10:53 AM  

"God DID in fact command Israel to kill men, women and children of their enemies. That God commanded Israel to kill the parents and boy children of their enemies, but to take home the virgin girls and make them their wives.

Sounds like a fairly spectacularly violent and oppressive form of Christianity"

That is not Christianity. Your ignorance, literally, is astounding. You resort to the Old Testament for an accurate description of Christianity? You should know better.

Our Bible is split into two halves for a reason. Jesus, the answer to sin. Thanks to Christ we aren't burdened by the weight of the Law, old things are passed away, all things are become new.

Islam's Quran has no such division. It is what it is from beginning to end. What the Sura's say at the beginning of the book are not in the least mitigated by a savior at the end.

You are trying to compare apples to apples, but this is a false argument. The Bible and the Quran are not in the infinitesimally teenist bit equal. What we are comparing here is the holy word of God to dead men's bones. There is no life in the Quran.

Jesus sits at the right hand of God, while Mohammed awaits resurrection at the great white throne to be judged by God. He died without a savior. He is burning, literally, in hell. Why else are your missionary friends in Morocco? Please don't tell me they're there to simply be good shining examples of Christianity. Please tell me they are there to win souls to Christ. Those Muslims, however much you or anyone else wants to describe them as being 'more Christian than genuine Christians,' are lost. On their way to hell.

Please tell me THAT is why your friends are in Morocco.

Dan Trabue June 21, 2010 at 11:06 AM  

So, what is your source for information on Islam?

Mark June 21, 2010 at 11:36 AM  

Hey Dan, After the "peaceful" Muslims saw off your missionary friends' heads, be sure you come and tell us what sweet people Muslims are.

"Religion of peace", my rosy red pattootie.

Tell that to the 3000 victims of 9/11.

ELAshley June 21, 2010 at 11:42 AM  

My own personal pocket Koran

Brigitte Gabriel -- Author of Because They Hate

Ayaan Hirsi Ali -- Collaborator with the slain Theo Van Gogh, and author of Infidel

Emir & Ergun Caner -- former Muslims, now Christian. Ergun is presently president of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary. Jerry Falwell's old digs. Emir Caner is president of Truett-McConnell College in Cleveland Georgia.

And Andrew McCarthy, among many others.

And nothing speaks louder than 3,000 innocent lives lost in one cowardly attack by MUSLIMS on 9.11

ELAshley June 21, 2010 at 11:47 AM  

Look, the issue isn't those Muslims who have no desire to kill anyone. The issue is those Muslim who do. Furthermore, and to reiterate once again, those who DO desire to kill 'infidels' ARE mainstream Muslims. THEY are the ones following the tenets of their faith to the letter. It is those who choose NOT to kill who are the radicals.

Dan Trabue June 21, 2010 at 11:54 AM  

Says you. "Real" Muslims disagree with you.

I take their word as having more weight than yours, nothing personal. I think you are seeing what you want to see. In order to support that view of the world that you want to see, you read people with an axe to grind to validate your position.

Why not read or talk to some actual Muslims? Doesn't first hand information strike you as more reliable than second/third/seventh hand information?

Doesn't information from the actual source strike you as more reliable than folk with an agenda?

Regardless, I find your sources of information not compelling.

Dan Trabue June 21, 2010 at 11:54 AM  

I mean, Jerry Falwell? Really?

Mark June 21, 2010 at 11:59 AM  

OK, Eric. I've read the entire post. You are correct, sir. It is he length it is supposed to be.

But, I still say he is a closet Muslim intent on destroying America from the inside, and I think there is ample evidence of that supposition.

ELAshley June 21, 2010 at 12:12 PM  

Yes, Jerry Falwell.

Or rather the university he founded. Can you as a Christian find NO empathy for a fellow brother in Christ? But it figures, after all, Christianity is the only 'army' that attacks and destroys its own membership. Just whose side are you on? Are you on the side of Christ? Or on the side of Muhammed?

Ex-Muslims have an ax to grind? Christian's who are ex-muslims have axes to grind? Hirsi Ali is, or was, a Muslim, who suffered genital mutilation by MUSLIMS! Is her voice worthless? Brigitte Gabriel is a Christian who survived ethnic cleansing in Lebanon; is her voice worthless as well? Emir and Ergun Caner lost their father to Satan's lie because they found the light of God, in truth, through Jesus Christ! Are their voices worthless as well?

"I think you are seeing what you want to see." --Said the beam to the mote.

What a fine Christian YOU'VE turned out to be!

Marshall Art June 21, 2010 at 12:13 PM  

There are many legitimate and reliable sources on Islam, the Koran and Hadith being two. The following is a partial list of people who've devoted their lives to the study and/or explanation of Islam for the benefit of non-Muslims:

Robert Spencer is a good source and to his credit, relies heavily on the writings of Islamic apologists for confirmation of his opinions on what Islam really teaches. I've read two of his books and find them enlightening.

Ergun Kaner was the first author I read. His book, "Unveiling Islam" mirrors much of what Spencer's books also say. I've heard some criticisms of this guy lately, but none regarding his work in describing what Islam is all about.

Walid Shoebat, a reformed terrorist, is a good source of describing Islam and how it is practiced by those trying to kill us.

B'at Yeor, Walid Phares, Brigitte Gabriel, Daniel Pipes are other knowledgable people that have described the teachings of the Koran and many, like Kaner and Spencer, easily point out the differences between Koranic and Biblical teachings showing how there is no comparison as regards what is used to justify violence by some who claim to be Christian, and what is actually taught to those Muslims who use violence to further their ends.

Another point that comes up often is the Islamic notion that lying to non-Muslims is acceptable if it is supposedly done in the interest of furthering Islam. This totally complicates any attempts to deal with those Muslims who seem peaceful. Are they really peaceful and willing to live side-by-side or are they liars setting us up for some future violence? How can we know?

I echo Eric's wonder at the purpose of your missionary friends. I'm well aware that some missionaries lend aid without constant pressure to convert, but the hope of drawing others to Christ is always at the heart of mission work, is it not?

I would also reiterate my own wonder as to whether or not these are the same missionaries, or from the same group, trained in the same way as those who tended to sympathizers of the communist supported Sandanistas. Seems like an incredibly naive and gullible bunch, not discerning in any way, to accept at face value anything told to them by those they've chosen to help. They then return to relate these stories to other yokels like yourself that then decide Reagan sucks and Muslims are misunderstood sweethearts.

Finally, your continued framing of OT stories in such negative terms is quite telling and incredibly boring. It is also sinful to pretend it means what it doesn't mean or that it might equate to the teachings of a pagan religion.

ELAshley June 21, 2010 at 12:19 PM  

You may very well be right, Mark. He may indeed be a closet Muslim. That makes him dangerous to ALL Americans. His faith only makes him a danger to himself.

Yes, it would be tragic if, because of Obama's secret Muslim faith, Americans suffered and lost their freedom. But it would be equally tragic if Obama died without Christ, 'cause that's the direction he's heading. But folk like Dan only see imaginary axes in need of grinding... personal vendettas.

No I don't like Obama, but I do pray he finds God, and wholeheartedly repents and saves this country from his own horrid and misguided policies. He could even get my vote we he do it. I'll vote for a blood-bought 'sold out to Christ' Christian over party affiliation any day of the week.

ELAshley June 21, 2010 at 12:23 PM  

@ Marshall...

Hear! Hear!

Marshall Art June 21, 2010 at 12:32 PM  

I would also like to point out the stark differences between the main characters of the two religions: Christ and Mohammed. Who's example should be followed? Who's example is one of violent conversions and oppression? Put aside the proper or improper interpretations of the followers of these two, but focus only on the lives of each and which is the more violent and malevolent? Which allows for the free will of the one hearing the message? Which gives only three choices: convert, submit or die?

Taking instruction from a random Muslim cannot be more enlightening than reading the words of the man who founded the religion. The "second/third/seventh hand" sources we use have based their opinions and interpretations on THAT guy and HIS words and HIS teachings, as well as on Koranic believing apologists and theologians.

I'd also like to add one more source that I neglected earlier. That would be MEMRI, and orgainization that translates the words of Arab-speaking teachers and leaders of the Muslim religion so that we can know how differently they speak amongst themselves, what they truly teach the Muslim faithful.

You see, Dan, for some of us, the words of a few Muslims isn't enough, anymore than the words of a few libs or Obama supporters. We actually do our due dilligence and find out as much as we can before we come to our conclusions. Anecdotal intel only goes so far. You demonstrated the same superficial knowledge of Black Liberation Theology in your support of Trinity UCC. And you have the nerve to say our sources of info are not compelling?

ELAshley June 21, 2010 at 12:54 PM  

3 Quotes from Oscar Wilde:

[disclaimer: though the few quips below are indeed shaded in hues of wisdom, it should not be inferred that Mr. Wilde was a wise man.]

"A thing is not necessarily true because a man dies for it."

Muslims die for a lie each and every day.

"Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future."

No one is perfect, especially Christians (you get that Dan? Jerry Falwell?). Sinners will never be perfect, nor forgiven.

"Self-denial is the shining sore on the leprous body of Christianity."

Christians don't follow Christianity. They follow a real and living person who can be known, loved, experienced, enthroned, and embodied... Much of what passes for Christianity is not Christianity. And, paraphrasing Mr. Wilde...

'a man is not necessarily Christian because he believes he is.'

Obama, anyone? The proof is in the pudding. And Obama's bowl is empty.

BenT - the unbeliever,  June 21, 2010 at 1:58 PM  

"You resort to the Old Testament for an accurate description of Christianity? You should know better."

Reconcile this statement with your views on the Ten Commandments and the homosexuality please.

It seems a very self-serving religion to take only the parts of each testament one agrees with. Hating homosexuals and denouncing womens' rights form the old testament, eating shellfish and "it's a loving peaceful religion" from the new. You claim to follow a living god, but haven't received any new teachings or lessons since about the seventh century. And when those aren't easy you reach back further for the condemnations and posturings of earlier books.

Matthew seems to me to be the last word from your prophet on the treatment of others. Turn the other cheek. Treat others as you would be treated. Tough lessons.

You know NOTHING of Barack Obama's spirituality but you feel secure and righteous in your judgment of not only him, but over a third of the world's population. You set yourself at the right-hand of your God.

I would rather keep my personal integrity than be blackmailed into a faith by the threat of eternal torment. I'd rather be hated by my family and friends than to feel the smug self-righteousness that infests you. If you wish to be spiritual then pray for guidance and love, for I have yet to see you show it.

Someone who can write the post above has no love or empathy or sympathy of their fellow man. Has no joy in creation or kindness in their heart. I would rather go to hell than heaven with christians like you.

ELAshley June 21, 2010 at 4:13 PM  

To reconcile: The short version: What God told the Israelites to do he has NOT told Christendom to do. Muhammed, on the other hand has given explicit instructions on what to do to Jews and Infidels, without any hint of dispensational relevance, ie, what he said to do then still applies today. Dan has simply misapplied historical events in the Old Testament in his suggestion that Christians are to do the same today. As you say, Matthew has a lot to say about how we are to treat our enemies. And Dan should know better.

Believe it or not, but there's a big difference between historical events wherein God commanded a specific action during a specific event, and specific instructions given by God by which His people were to order their lives and society-- Homosexuality was an abomination in Moses' time, it was wrong in Paul's, Peter's and Jude's time. Stands to reason it's just as wrong today, since I can find no new scripture that makes it an acceptable practice today. (btw: "You claim to follow a living god, but haven't received any new teachings or lessons since about the seventh century." Seventh century? Try [circa] AD 96)

As for the Ten Commandments: Die without Jesus' blood applied to your sin, and these commandments will be your judge, because the Law is death to every man, woman, and child. But life is in the blood of Jesus. The Law illustrates just how impossible it is for man, by his own merit, to be righteous before God. The only righteousness a Christian has is Jesus' righteousness. If I am righteous it's not for anything I've said or done, because, as you so pointedly stated, there is nothing good in me. Only the fact that I'm trusting in the finished work of God [Jesus] on the cross am I even able to say with confidence 'I will not see hell.' There is nothing good in me. Nothing. But anyone, upon their death, without Christ, is doomed. Without hope or remedy.

You say you'd rather spend eternity in hell than spend it in heaven with people like me. But that's foolish. You see, I won't be, in heaven, like I am now. Everything that makes me what I am now: envious, petty, a liar and a thief, etc., will be stripped away. There'll be no sin in me. It will never cross my mind to be anything other than wholly accepting and loving of you. You too, if you accept Jesus. There will be no barriers to intimacy for anyone (and no, not sex; what God will give us is light years beyond sex). You will look back on your statement and realize how foolish it was because you're basing your vision of heaven upon an imperfect human template/mindset. You don't want to go to hell. You just want to hurt me in the here and now; you want to give me 'what for' for having the audacity to say the things I've said (believe it or not, but I understand that). And that too is a very human reaction-- one you will be wholly devoid of in heaven.

Islam, on the other hand, has nothing to offer the sinner (and yes, that perfectly describes me as well. I am a sinner!)-- no peace, no life, no reward, no hope. And if I had to distill my argument against Islam down to a single statement, that would be it.

But as for Obama. NO genuine Christian could habitually support and defend the practice of abortion. Or consciously insist that Christian iconography be covered, in their natural settings, just so he could give a speech in a place prone to such icons. No genuine Christian could say that there are many paths to the same place, for it demeans the sacrifice God made to make you clean enough to enter His presence.

I do not believe Obama is saved. Well, you don't care much for me or my God, so why should it matter to you what I believe. And why should it matter to you whether Obama is saved? What should matter to you, is 'are YOU saved?'

I hope and pray, in the end, that you are. I'd rather spend an eternity in heaven with you, than know that you rejected Jesus and were forever lost.

Marshall Art June 21, 2010 at 4:54 PM  

And to that I can only add a big "Hear! Hear!" back at you, Eric. Very well said indeed.

Mark June 21, 2010 at 5:03 PM  

Dan, you do know don't you, that should Sharia law become American law, you will be one of the first to be persecuted, and possibly murdered, because you steadfastly insist you are a Christian?

Your words say you are a Christian but your stated beliefs say you aren't. The same is true of your Messiah, Barack Hussein Obama.

You sit there with your bare face hanging out and say Islam is a peaceful religion. Well, check this out.

Dan Trabue June 21, 2010 at 6:07 PM  

Mark, you DO realize, don't you, that if we start executing people who make stupid comments, you might well be in trouble?

WHO is going to implement Sharia law?

No, don't bother giving an idiotic answer like "Obama, cuz he's a super secret Muslim..." and only embarrassing yourself. Just try thinking a bit before you throw ridiculous commentary out there for the whole world to see.

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, you know...

Mark June 21, 2010 at 7:39 PM  

"Were Obama to stage another Oval Office address to the American people during which he made a point of establishing once and for all that his faith is indeed Islam, would he, as a result, lose faith with, and support from the bulk of his supporters?"

You already know the answer to that, Eric. Obama's supporters would follow him right over a cliff, regardless of what he does or says. At this point, his followers would celebrate him if he came right out and said, "I am Muslim, and I want to institute Sharia law in America, and I am your dictator, and I will execute all who oppose me."

Yes, they are that brainwashed. Look at Dan. Look at Bent. Look at Jim. You need go no further to find perfect examples of their lemming mentality.

Mark June 21, 2010 at 7:45 PM  

"WHO is going to implement Sharia law?"

Probably no one, Dan, but Obama will try, because he's a closet Muslim who intends to destroy America from within.

See the next post for evidence of his intentions.

But I take it back, Dan. You won't be persecuted by Obama's new Islamic regime. Because you, like all false Christians, will deny Jesus to save your pathetic little life.

Marshall Art June 21, 2010 at 8:12 PM  

" At this point, his followers would celebrate him if he came right out and said, "I am Muslim, and I want to institute Sharia law in America, and I am your dictator, and I will execute all who oppose me.""

I won't go anywhere near that far. I personally think a great many of Obama's supporters are hoping against hope that he's not as bad as he continually and more routinely seems to be. If Barry was to do something that outlandish, even the most drunk of his KoolAid drinkers would stick their fingers down their own throats and do a massive spit take.

Sharia law could only take place in this country if two things happen:

1) We're outnumbered at the voting booths.
2) The populace has become more European than Europe.

It would take at least a full generation from now for either to occur. Likely two.

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Barry Obama : The Young Turk

Young Turk:
Date: 1908
Function: noun
Etymology: Young Turks, a 20th century revolutionary party in Turkey
:an insurgent or a member of an insurgent group especially in a political party : radical; broadly
:one advocating changes within a usually established group.

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